Vanessa Rogers 

I don't understand why things have to be the way they are. You know, why can't you kick against the doors and be who you want to be? You can. But the door opens easier if you're not shouting and bashing on it. So, maybe it's learning the skills to get the door opened faster.

Paul Meunier 

Hello, I'm Paul Meunier, the executive director of the Youth Intervention Programs Association. And I'm a youth worker at heart. How lucky am I? I have the privilege to meet youth workers from around the globe and learn their stories and share them with the entire world. I'm glad you're listening because together we'll learn how their life experiences shape their youth work. As you listen, I encourage you to consider how your experiences shape what you have to offer young people. Welcome to this edition of The Passionate Youth Worker. Hi, everybody. For this episode, we're joined by Vanessa Rogers from London, England. Vanessa is a trainer, has authored over 20 books that are published worldwide, and is a youth worker practitioner. Vanessa also delivers the professional qualifications for the National Youth Agency in the United Kingdom. In addition to all that, every year she returns to face-to-face youth work for three months to stay grounded. Vanessa, thanks for being a guest on The Passionate Youth Worker.

Vanessa Rogers 

Hi, Paul. Thanks for having me.

Paul Meunier 

It's wonderful to have you here. I'm eager to do my first interview with somebody from the United Kingdom. So, let's get started. Are you ready?

Vanessa Rogers 

Yeah sure, let's go for it.

Paul Meunier 

Vanessa, you clearly have a passion for supporting young people and you certainly have carved out a unique way of doing it. When we were getting to know each other you mentioned, your mom always encouraged you to be individualistic. And it seems like you took that message right to heart. Let's begin this episode talking about your family and your mom. And can you just tell us a little bit about that? What was your early years like?

Vanessa Rogers 

So, my early years, I mean, I felt hard-done by. I was the eldest so often the one that was blamed for things or took charge. But actually it kind of fit my personality because I've been doing it ever since. But yeah, I mean, I had a good childhood. I grew up in the East End of London and if any of your kind of listeners want to see that, Call The Midwife is filmed pretty much where I come from. But I never felt poor. You know that I come from a big family, very supportive network. And it probably took me a long time to realize that not everybody had that. And whilst that might at times have felt just a little bit like you couldn't get away with anything because somebody always saw you. There's always a strength as well of having an aunt and an uncle and a someone and a grandmother, someone that is there, and will give you a bit of time. And I guess that's what I try and put across to young people. Maybe I think youth workers, we offer that. That someone. If they don't have anybody else, sometimes we are that person that is just an adult who has got the space and the time to listen without judging. You know, and talking it through. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. And I've got a big family of my own, I went on to have plenty of children. So, I like the hustle and bustle and the noise.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, perfect for youth work settings, right, to kinda be living in the ever fluid situation that's always changing, always something new to deal with. But I want to stick with this idea about individualism and your mom taught you to be and encouraged you to be individualistic. How did that desire to find yourself and to be your own person play out when you were younger? How did you go about finding your identity?

Vanessa Rogers 

Mine was very much through art. I always thought I'd be an artist. I didn't realize that for an artist I was a pretty good writer. I was always good at English. I think I wrote my first book when I was about seven one summer holiday. You know all escapist. Yeah, I found it when my mum and dad finally downsized. Terrible! But at the time I carried it round with me you know, like a precious, precious piece of work. But through art, I loved art, loved music, always loved music. The way you can express yourself through colors and clothes, and play with that kind of gender identity, sexuality, everything, loved all of it. And realized that music allows you to be more than one thing. So, you know you can express different sides of yourself. And I'm sure my mum used to tut, well I know she did. She used to despair at times. But I was never stopped in doing it. So, I was encouraged. So, when I was a Punk and I dyed my hair pink, it was my mum that dyed it for me. You know, she'd rather be involved doing it, even though she deeply disapproved.

Paul Meunier 

Wow, that sounds like a wonderful parenting strategy to encourage your young people or your children I should say, to be themselves and help them grow into who they ought to be and what their niche is and what their skills and their interests are. But yet, knowing that's going to create some uncomfortableness for them. That is really a great lesson that she set you up with and perfect for doing youth work for sure and raising your own family. So, you went Punk and you had pink hair, and you sometimes caused a little grief and anxiety for your parents probably because you were being so individualistic, like you really took it seriously, almost. And what did that mean for you in school? Did that play out well there in your social world? How did all that ideas about being individualistic play out outside of the home?

Vanessa Rogers 

Well, school doesn't really like individuals does it? And you're supposed to conform. I'm not very good at conformant. If I can't understand something, I want to ask why. So, why does it matter if I'm not wearing a school skirt? And I've got to, I want to wear trousers because it's cold? Why is that a problem? And if you can't give me a good reason, it's just it's the rules. Well, then, if it's not sensible, the rules need to change. And I wasn't being naughty or difficult. It just didn't make sense to me. So yeah, I was popular with my peer group, not popular with teachers. Had a really difficult time at school actually. Really didn't like it, didn't fit within that structure. It wasn't creative enough. I loved the art room. You know I had a lovely art teacher that inspired me. Both my parents said they used to absolutely just dread parents evening, because it would always be guess what she's done now. But there were really naughty kids in my school. And I wasn't one of those, but I was the one that was always in trouble. And I didn't finish, you know, I ended up being kicked out of school in the end.

Paul Meunier 

Oh, I was gonna ask you about grades despite like the kind of your willingness to question authority, question rules, and think deep about things were your grades okay, so that was gonna be my question. But at the very end there you said you got kicked out school?

Vanessa Rogers 

So, my grades were terrible actually. I find it embarrassing now. I did all those years in school, five years in school. And I then got handful of exams. I was in top set for everything. You know, really high IQ, very clever, allegedly, terribly. But I'm also one of those people that's quite iterative so I can read the book the night before. And then I do really well in the exam. So, in exams, where it was tested like that, you just got to learn it and then regurgitate it. But I just didn't apply myself, it's as simple as that. I was so busy doing other things that I didn't apply myself. And then I got into trouble for dyeing my hair. And it was the final straw. So, I was allowed to come back into school to sit my exams but I was not allowed to continue into what we call the sixth form here, its when you do your A Levels, ready to go. So, I had to go back later. I went back right after I had children. Did my qualifications because I didn't have enough to do anything with. Got into art college on the strength of my portfolio. And they said they'd take me unconditionally didn't matter if I got any grades or not. And I took that I guess, as being another excuse not to really make much effort. Loved art college, absolutely worked my socks off there. I loved it. Hated school. Yeah.

Paul Meunier 

Can you talk about like grades and why were you kicked out of school? So, here you were a smart person, high IQ, good artistic skills, excellent writer. And yet you couldn't find your niche in school.

Vanessa Rogers 

 No.

Paul Meunier 

And so I'm wondering, that must have played some sort of influence on you for your future decision to help other young people who were finding a similar kind of scenario in their life where they knew they had skills, they knew they had talents but they just couldn't fit in or there was not support systems around them to help them. Do you think there's a connection there? Do you think like your childhood and your experiences have paralleled your work today?

Vanessa Rogers 

Definitely. Definitely. I was brought up and actually I was far closer to my dad than my mum, but very much around you know, if you put your mind to it, you work hard, you can more or less do anything. You know, you can. You can try. And I realized that sometimes school and those are just not the right environment. For me, they were so busy messing around worrying about the height of my heels on my shoes and the color of my hair that they weren't looking beyond that. You know, there was no nurturing, there was no hang on a minute If you're good at this. You know, as a teacher now I would be questioning, well, why is it I'm not getting through to this kid? I can see she's got all the necessary smarts so, why is she not achieving? And I realized that I wasn't alone, that there were loads of girls and other young people who sit in classrooms just like I did. And it just goes to come out. And they're nowhere near fulfilling their achievements. So, for some people, it's great. But that got me looking at different learning styles. And for some people, they need different ways to connect, and definitely youth work. I don't think there are unreachable young people, those young oh you can't engage with them. We just haven't found a way to engage with them yet. We haven't found what clicks for them, and what turns them on. Because when you do that, you can see the minute that it happens, and suddenly, they're interested and you've got them. And that's perfect because everybody's got a potential, whatever that might be. Everybody's got something to say, and everybody has a right to say and to be fulfill their achievements, you know, to be the best version of themselves, I guess.

Paul Meunier 

I loved what you said about everybody is able to be connected with, we just sometimes don't know how to figure that out.

Vanessa Rogers 

Yeah.

Paul Meunier 

And I often think that youth work is part science, I mean, you have to understand the basics of developmental years, the mental health basics, communication skills, you have to understand those things. But a big part of this job is the creative side of that, and I can see how you brought your creativity into your work is that you have to know how to connect with young people. And there's no magic bullet, there's nothing that says this is how you do it for every young person. It's up to the youth worker to find that in, to find that connection, to build that trust and do that work. So, do you see it that way too where the creativity in the art side of youth work is a really important component to it?

Vanessa Rogers 

Yeah, for sure. And I found that a lot of young people that perhaps aren't gonna do as well in school, maybe academics, you know, is not for them. But creativity can be a completely different route. And I also recognize that, and I'm happy with that, that it may be that that young person is not going to connect with me, but hey, they might connect with you, Paul. And you know, it's my job to facilitate that. So, they get to see you, and that's the person they connect with. Whereas in school, it has to look like this. And I understand that, because the teachers have got to get that at the end. You know, they're working towards that. Whereas youth work is around skills for life. You're helping somebody hopefully learn the skills to navigate adult life safely, to be able to make good choices for themselves, to understand about consequences, but also to express their emotions, how they feel, what they want, what really drives them. And that's why I think we have to figure out what drives us so that we can make good youth workers. You know, I'm not back there fighting the good fight for them, again, not rewriting history from what went wrong for me through those young people. That's not helpful either. This is about what works for them, let's see. And that might be music, it might be drama, it might be art, it might be none of those things. It might actually it is maths, or science or taking them up a mountain, it's outdoor ed. There's all sorts of things that might be what gets them. And it's just finding that, that little key.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. I want to follow up with a question about that. But we're going to take a short break and when we come back I want to talk more about this creative side of youth work, so we'll be right back.

Jade Schleif 

No matter how you support our young people, The Professional Youth Worker powered by YIPA has your training and learning needs covered. Visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org to see for yourself, and then join the 1000s of youth workers around the globe who learn from our easy to access exceptional trainings. From our blogs to our podcast, The Professional Youth Worker is your go-to resource for tools to help you keep going, keep learning, and keep growing. Members enjoy free unlimited access to Live Online and On-Demand trainings, and a preferred discount pricing for our one-of-a-kind certificate course. Annual memberships are ridiculously affordable for individuals and organizations. Visit training.yipa.org today to learn more. That's training.yipa.org.

Paul Meunier 

Vanessa, right before the break I was saying I wanted to follow up with the creative side of youth work. I'm wondering you know you teach and instruct, you've written so many books about youth work. But that creative side of things, do you teach that or instruct people on that? And if you do, can that be taught to people or is that a natural instinct that you think people either have or don't have to just say, no matter what the scenario is, I'm going to figure out a way for this young person to feel engaged and feel connected and empowered?

Vanessa Rogers 

So, there's a few questions in there. So, first of all, that's how I came into youth work through community arts. And so, it was very much like graffiti projects and all that stuff. And found that was something that turned a lot of young people on, they enjoyed it. And every so often, I like to go back and just challenge those preconceptions about white middle-aged women and graffiti by grabbing the spray cans one more time and just doing a couple of stars or a tag or something. And young people's faces like, Whoa, did she just do that? So, that's quite nice. In terms of using that creativity. I mean, I've done workshops with other youth workers, getting them involved, and showing them how to use anything from I don't know, doing body casts to designing clothes on people, to recycled fashion shows to whatever it might be small, five-minute projects through to big, big projects that are all over art space. I tend to use creativity or creative ideas in some way, just because that's how my brain works. So, I'm very visual. And it's, I guess, it's encouraging other people. So, some of my books will have, they always have an element of art-based activities in there. But I, it's usually a vehicle to get people talking. So, it doesn't really matter what the vehicle is, you can be creative baking a cake, doesn't matter. It's about that conversation and building that relationship. I'll give you an example. I'm doing a load of work that was recent and is around porn. So, one of the things that fascinated me about pornography was actually about the fashion for waxing pubic hair in the UK, don't know if it's the same where you are. And realized that a lot of that young girls all waxed off, think everything else is disgusting, comes from porn. You know, how they video it. So, once we get this message across and get them to really start thinking about is that a choice or actually, are we are we feminists by doing this? Or actually, are we playing into that? That was the conversation. So, I made a game whereby we had these dollies, drawn out dollies like a dress dolly. And I've done different shaped pubic hairs through the years from the Victorian Merkin because you wanted to have loads of pubic hair because it means you're fit, you haven't got an STI, and you're of childbearing age, it means you're young, right the way through. And they were fascinated. This got this conversation going, I could never have got it to go because I couldn't have gotten them to talk about it. But they thought it was funny. It made them laugh. And it made them really think about how does things like pornography impact and influence, what we might see as empowering for our own bodies. And where those fashions come from, those aesthetics. So, that got that conversation going. It got us all talking and laughing and people sharing stuff because it was fun. Nobody had to say anything that was out there. Nobody had to talk about the pornography. That was not what this was about. It was a good way to get that conversation going. Now, the youth workers that were with me when I did that said that's brilliant, can we have a set? So, we made some more sets. And that's often how things go. You know, we learn from each other, youth workers don't we because you see something that you like, how somebody works with somebody, oh, I'll have a go at that. How does that go? And that's what my books are really, are those things. So, creativity has come through that now.

Paul Meunier 

What a wonderful way to reach young people and to always be thinking of unique and new ways to connect with them so that they feel comfortable talking about the topic and it sounds like you're so good at doing that. I know you have a passion for in particular working with young girls that are sometimes trafficked, the unnoticed girls who don't make the noise and like the boys, they don't throw bricks through the window or get in fights but they're struggling just as much. Can you talk a little bit about where your passion for helping exploited young girls comes from and why that's so important to you?

Vanessa Rogers 

Yeah, for sure. Probably some of its to do with having been a girl that I didn't think was listened to. People were looking in the wrong direction. They weren't looking at what was really going on for me at all. And I became a parent very young. And it was the making of me. People often judge me for that, whereas I think it changed my life for the better, completely. And, again, there's gotta be other people like this, and the more stuff I did with young parents, and then I started looking at, okay, how's those relationships that they were in and realized that there is, you know, they were in some really bad relationships, like they felt stuck in them or had fallen into them, and thought, Okay, we need to do work on that, positive relationships. And that, alongside all the stuff I'd done with youth justice, working with young people, just realized there's some really vulnerable girls out there whose self-esteem is totally caught up in feeling attractive, or sexy. And that age group is getting younger and younger and younger, due to the influence of things like social media, whatever, Keeping Up with the Kardashians, you can blame it on everything it’s just popular culture. But I realized girls from the age of maybe even as young as seven or eight, are seeing themselves and valuing themselves only in terms of how they look. And that can't be right. You know, so very much about encouraging young women to be themselves, and that you are more than how you look. Other things are really valuable about you, too. Like that you're kind, or you're caring, or you're a great listener, or you're a great cook, it doesn't matter, you know, there are other things. And girls work allows you to do that, really. So, often we'll work with young women who have been bullied, or who've been in really poor relationships or domestic abuse, or have been, you know, trafficked, and been sexually abused, and trying to build that confidence and that value back up in them so that they feel I am okay. That for me is real success. They can look in the mirror and say, You know what, I like what I see. And that's so important.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. It's interesting listening to your talk, you are teaching young girls and young women to be themselves and to be individualistic, find who they are, and where their niche can be. And I think it's interesting how you said that part of your experience growing up and not feeling heard, and questioning, why do things have to be the way they are? You were set up to do this work, you've got all the right tools. You're smart, you're creative, your parents encouraged you to be who you are. All those things in what you have to do to be a good youth worker. And I wonder, have you thought much about how that connection is there or is it just something you go through and not really ponder that too much?

Vanessa Rogers 

Probably a bit of both. I hadn't particularly. But then that wasn't quite true. You know, I had a very socially aware grandfather, because I first started working in youth homelessness, and he had taken me up to show me St. Giles in the Fields, which is a big soup kitchen in London, when I was about five. And I'd say what they doing, those men? He's like they're queuing up to get soup and during the Great Depression after the First World War, so did I have to with my brothers, and I was like, why don't you go home for your dinner? He was like, because some people don't have homes. And I just thought that was so shocking. And he took the time to talk to me and explain how that happened, and why some people would be homeless. And I guess that talking to you about learning, and whether that's about you know, it's particularly in the East End of London there's a real diverse mix of cultures. And you know, there's this sort of saying that every every cream race washes up in the East End at some point through the docks that were. You know, there was an interest, and I was brought up to have an interest in others, as well. So yeah, I do see where it comes from. And certainly, being so angerous, but such a lot of time it was a teenager feeling so angry and so wanting to just rip everything down. But I wasn't really angry. I was just frustrated. And so, I kind of get that for other people. But it is different to working through your own stuff. That is not what I'm trying to do here. But I do recognize that some people don't have the spaces, they don't have the opportunities. It's not even about the money because I come from poor working-class background, but I was given value. So, it's about I was given value as a person and I grew up with self-respect. And that's what I do for others.

Paul Meunier 

And look what that did for you. And it made you be a person that has committed your life to helping other people find that value themselves and setting up an infrastructure and support systems for young people so they can go through the same experience you had. I think it's wonderful that you've used all your tools and all your creativity to just throw yourself into this work and make the world a better place. I've got kind of a deep question for you. I'm wondering if you could go back now, the things you know, all the experiences you've had in life, all the self-reflection and the self-awareness that you have done, what would you say to your younger self, that angry, pink-haired girl who was questioning everything at school? What would you go back and tell her?

Vanessa Rogers 

I'd say, be less angry, dance more. It'll be alright. And actually, ultimately, you'll get your voice heard. But just don't, just don't be quite so angry because it spoils a lot of the fun along the way. Because actually, I still feel the same as I did then. I don't understand why things have to be the way they are. Why? You know, why can't you kick against the doors and be who you want to be? You can. But the door opens easier if you're not shouting and bashing on it. So, maybe it's learning the skills to get the door open faster.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, really good advice you'd give to yourself, your younger self. And I think about how that is relevant to so many of our young people today is we see them as angry. And it's easy to write that off as a character flaw or something that they're just being difficult. They don't want to cooperate, all that but your life is the epitome of an example of really wasn't so much about anger it was about I just got to find my way and I don't understand all these things. And that's what so many of our young people are going through, and we want to write them off as just being difficult, awful, young people. Like your school did to you.

Vanessa Rogers 

Yeah.

Paul Meunier 

And I think that you bring that to this field in such a wonderful way.

Vanessa Rogers 

I think we think anger is a bad thing. It's not, it's just one of your emotions. But often, you respond, what we do is we respond to that anger. And we need to be responding to what's going on underneath. Because anger is not really the primary emotion, I'm showing you my anger. But underneath, I'm a teenager who's not quite sure where I fit in. And am I good enough? And, you know, I'm cross that I don't like the rules. And I don't seem to understand why we have to do stupid things. And why can't I be in the art room all the time doing what I like? If they'd responded to that bit, rather than focusing on the anger it would have been a lot easier wouldn't it. Do you know what I mean? So, we try and take people's anger away from them. We tell them that, you know, well don't be angry, that's not very nice, that's not very polite, and all that stuff. Whereas actually, you know, anger is justified. It's brought about some marvelous change. Don't think you're angry at the moment about environmental issues. Good. Good, its good anger, you know, hopefully, it'll affect change.

Paul Meunier 

Vanessa, it's been wonderful getting to know you, and having you as a guest on the show. You continue to do such great things for our field and bring awareness to the importance of understanding that individual side of every person. And I know that as you go through years of work here ahead of you, you're going to do incredible things for so many people. And it's been exciting to hear your story. Thank you for what you've done. And thank you for being a guest on The Passionate Youth Worker.

Vanessa Rogers 

Thank you so much, Paul. It's such a pleasure to be here. And just so amazing to be amongst those guests that you've had on and hopefully, you know, it'd be great to hear from more American youth workers. We need to do more together. The world's a small place.

Paul Meunier 

Yes.

Vanessa Rogers 

Well, quite big, but we can find the footsteps across.

Paul Meunier 

Yes. Before we go, Vanessa, what words of wisdom or inspiration would you like to leave with the listeners?

Vanessa Rogers 

For me, one thing I've learned about youth work is listen more than you speak. And often with young people, we're so keen to have that relationship. You know, we want to engage, we've got loads tell them, loads to do. And if we just left that space, just leave it a little bit longer the words kind of come out and feelings. So, listen more, speak less, and really listen to what they're saying. Thank you.

Paul Meunier 

If you would like to share your passion for youth work, we'd love to spotlight you as a guest. If you have feedback about the show, please let us know. Just visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org and click on the podcast tab. This podcast is made possible in part due to a generous contribution from M Health Fairview. I'm your host, Paul Meunier. Thanks for listening to The Passionate Youth Worker.