Tuli Kamati 

Community is the one thing that has helped me stay afloat. It's the one thing that has helped me push and push for the agenda of pro-choice, of anti-bigoted world. That's the one thing that has taught me so much, especially when the most oppressed communities are always the ones who are showing up for everyone else. So, that is one thing that togetherness has taught me.

Paul Meunier 

Hello, I'm Paul Meunier, the executive director of the Youth Intervention Programs Association. And I'm a youth worker at heart. How lucky am I? I have the privilege to meet youth workers from around the globe and learn their stories and share them with the entire world. I'm glad you're listening because together we'll learn how their life experiences shape their youth work. As you listen, I encourage you to consider how your experiences shape what you have to offer young people. Welcome to this edition of The Passionate Youth Worker.

Paul Meunier 

In this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Tuli Kamati from the Khomas region in Namibia. She has an adventurous soul and is a beacon of hope regarding advocacy. Growing up in the southern part of Namibia, Tuli's childhood was marked by the harsh realities of racism in a predominantly white environment. However, amidst these challenges she gleaned invaluable wisdom from her father about conflict resolution and togetherness, laying the foundation for her journey ahead. Today Tuli is the director of Reproductive Justice Namibia and she passionately advocates for just public policy surrounding reproductive rights. Drawing from her upbringing, she approaches her work with lawmakers with a unique perspective, rooted in compassion and understanding. Not content with solely advocating for change on the policy front, Tuli is also pursuing her medical studies. Her goal is to combine public policy as a doctor with social justice, something I believe we can all admire. Keep listening as we explore Tuli's inspiring journey. Tuli, welcome to the podcast.

Tuli Kamati 

Thank you, Paul. Thank you for having me. I really love the introduction!

Paul Meunier 

Yes, it's wonderful to have you and I'm super eager to dive in and learn more about your story. Are you ready to go?

Tuli Kamati 

Ready.

Paul Meunier 

Great. As we were getting to know each other, you made it clear that you don't like to be the center of attention. Rather, you'd like to make the center of attention be on other people. That sounds pretty altruistic to me. Do you consider yourself to be an altruistic person?

Tuli Kamati 

Yes, I do. I always say that everything I do, or everything that I envision for the world is pretty idealistic. So, certain things I always say, in a perfect world, it would be like this. So yes, I do believe I'm pretty altruistic, yes.

Paul Meunier 

Yes, I got that really strong sense in talking to you that that was the case. Where do you think that sense of altruism came from? Is it part of your upbringing? Is it just part of your DNA? What makes you so altruistic?

Tuli Kamati 

I think it's a combination of both. Given my upbringing with parents who really instilled in me the character of working hard, especially my dad, my mom, my brothers, all of them really inspired me to work hard. So, my dad is in law enforcement or was in law enforcement, since he's retired. And he taught me so much about how you want to see the world and what it is leaving the world a little bit better than just how you found it. And I get that he saw, he lived through a war. So, I realized that that's how he passed it on to me as well.

Paul Meunier 

What kind of lessons did your dad teach you? Can you think of an example or a category of things he taught you?

Tuli Kamati 

So, I think a pretty interesting story would be when I was around seven or eight, my father taught me the SWOT analysis. At the time, I obviously, did not even think that that's something that, you know, that's important in life. But as I've grown older, and even with, you know, college and university studies, that's something that's pretty integral to your learning, to how you resolve conflict, to how you approach matters. So, that's one of the things that he really taught me. The SWOT analysis and also my love for books, just not nonfiction, but fiction as well. Yeah,

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Do you still use that SWOT analysis today in determining your strengths and weaknesses and the opportunities and challenges in front of you?

Tuli Kamati 

Yes, I really do. It's one of the things that I use even in my work. And in my personal life. Sometimes I'm very strict with myself, especially. Even when I'm going shopping, I always make sure this is something that my housemate really hates. They hate to window shop. And I need to window shop in order to know what we're going to get and how much it costs. Is this something that we're gonna get, for example, if we're looking at stoves is how, how well does it work? How does it fit into, you know, our budget? How does it fit into the aesthetic of our kitchen, for example. So, sometimes it can get a bit annoying, but it's something that I really use day-to-day. And sometimes I forget that, oh, what I just did was the SWOT analysis. So yes, it's definitely something I do, and use in my day-to-day.

Paul Meunier 

That's interesting. Well, your father was very much in the forefront of thinking about teaching you how to make wise decisions and analyze things before you act at a very early age. Sounds like a very powerful lesson and a unique story for sure. How about your mother, is she similar to your father or is she different?

Tuli Kamati 

My mom and dad couldn't be any more different. My mom is somewhat of, you know, she's very traditional, very set in her ways, but also very kind, and she is part of the church. So, she applies those Christian values so well, in the sense that she has a big heart. And she's always open and willing to help anyone. She is very inspiring. And I love that about her. She doesn't give up very easily. Though her and my dad have different educational backgrounds, different upbringings, my dad obviously is very much straightforward. He's a fixer. My mom would want to ruminate about something, she'd want to think about it. She is a typical, I don't like to say woman or emotional or lack logic, because we don't emotions or logic. But she's that person who will think about something for a very long time, and then act upon it, which is something that's also very, you know, it teaches you a lot not to just, you know, your fight or flight instinct, especially growing up with a dad who's very much a fixer. It's taught me to sometimes take a step back, and then think about something before I act on it.

Paul Meunier 

We know you gleaned a lot of important lessons from your father, can you think of an example of something you've learned from your mother that you've incorporated into who you are?

Tuli Kamati 

So, for me, I turn 31 In June, which is, I believe, two months away, I have always been that person who I always thought when I finished high school immediately once I'm done, I would be, you know, on the direct career path. But unfortunately, my career path or my academic journey has been quite long. I finished high school at like a year younger than the rest of my peers. Then I went to college to do microbiology, Bachelors of Science, and I didn't complete it. I went into clinical nursing. I got my diploma then I pivoted into public health. And now I'm turning 31. And, you know, I am now studying to be a doctor. So, a lot of my peers have gotten, you know, jobs, they're working, they're not in the academic space anymore. So, one of the things that she really inspired me with was, she turned 50 and in our family she was she's the only one that at least in my nuclear family, she's the only one who didn't really, you know, finish high school the way she wanted to. she never got the opportunity to go to college or university. And so she went to University and graduated at 50. And so for me, that was something that was really inspiring because you, you're still going to age, so you might as well have a medical degree at the end of it. So, that's one of the things that she really taught me is, you know, resilience and not giving up on a dream.

Paul Meunier 

Great example. I'm glad I asked that question. I can see how you've incorporated both of their personalities into who you are today which allows you to accomplish so much. And I know we'll talk about that a little bit more. You have a focus on reproductive rights and but also just really on young people and this podcast is about, you know, youth workers and people who work with young people. Why do you think you have a focus on helping young people? Where did that come from?

Tuli Kamati 

For me, like you said in your introduction, I grew up, I come from a predominantly black country but I grew up in a predominantly white town. My first encounter with oppression or bigotry was racism. And so for me seeing some of my fellow learners at the time not being able to sort of fight back or articulate themselves well enough in the face of someone being very bigoted towards them, whether it was someone of higher authority like a teacher, or a principal, or a caretaker. whereas I was taught from home that, you know, no one is allowed to subjugate you, especially if you are armed with the knowledge on how to navigate that situation. For me, I think that taught me so much about personhood, about community, you know, building and forming these little communities amongst ourselves as like people of color in a predominantly black country, but in a predominantly white town. And also just with my mom seeing her church work, you know, how she would, every Sunday after church, you know, cook for a certain family, visit a sick person, pray for someone, you know, commune with her community in that way. I think that's what's taught me what community is because that's becoming such a lost art in today's you know, world of me, me me.

Paul Meunier 

I completely agree with that. And I have a thought-provoking question for you. You may not have the answer to this, because it is a hypothetical. But it seems like your experience of growing up in that environment with racism and being a minority person taught you compassion, and caring, and the importance of hearing other people. Do you think if you wouldn't have grown up in that environment or grew up in a different environment, would you still have the same social justice bent that you have to your personality? Do you think you'd still be focused on equality issues?

Tuli Kamati 

Probably not to the same degree to which I am involved in. Because a lot of times, especially in the environment that I live in, a lot of times people don't really understand something unless I equate to racism, right? So, I could be having a conversation with a man about sexism about, you know, reproductive health rights. And he wouldn't necessarily understand why it's oppressive, why there needs to be laws and legislature to protect that right. Until I tell him imagine, during apartheid, or during colonialism, if you did not have the right to do ABCD. So, I think I would not have the terminology or the lived experience to be able to equate that oppression to the rest of the work that I do, because I think sometimes people are only able to understand something when they personalize it.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting answer. And it is, I think, a clear indication that we are part of what our environment is, as we are raised, combined with the people that we interact with and our genetics, and that definitely had an influence on you. And sometimes it's a negative thing that creates a positive outcome. So clearly, the experiences you had with racism were negative. But somehow you turned it into a positive thing. And that's what I find so cool about you. And so many of the people we interview on this podcast is that they take adversity and turn it into something really positive. So, thank you for doing that.

Tuli Kamati 

Thank you so much. I'm gonna tell my niece you said I'm cool!

Paul Meunier 

All right. Sounds good. I don't know if that ages me or not, but okay, well let her know I say hi too. Okay, Tuli, we just have to take a short break. When we come back, I want to ask you more questions about your work with young people and what the future holds for you. So, we'll be right back.

Jade Schleif 

No matter how you support our young people, The Professional Youth Worker, powered by YIPA, has your training and learning needs covered. Visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org to see for yourself, and then join the 1000s of youth workers around the globe who learn from our easy to access exceptional trainings. From our blogs to our podcast, The Professional Youth Worker is your go-to resource for tools to help you keep going, keep learning, and keep growing. Members enjoy free unlimited access to Live Online and On Demand trainings, and a preferred discount pricing for our one-of-a-kind certificate course. Annual memberships are ridiculously affordable for individuals and organizations. Visit training.yipa.org today to learn more. That's training.yipa.org.

Paul Meunier 

Tuli, right before the break we were talking about your life experiences and how they've shaped what you have become today. What do you think you've learned from young people along the way, the work you're doing now and advocacy and interacting with young people, what have they taught you about yourself? Because I think that's an important part of being a youth worker is ee have to learn from the young people. What have you learned?

Tuli Kamati 

I have learned the art of respectability politics. I think as a millennial, that's something that we really, you know, have a hard time and learning because, in essence, we're raised by people who very much so drilled into us. Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. Thank you. Please. Even when you're addressing something that's quite sensitive or controversial. So, my work with young people has really taught me one that we can't respect our way into discussing, we can't respect our way into having someone listen to us. So, sometimes I just have to say what it is. And those young girls and young boys and in all their, you know, gender diversities, when they show up for the protests, they inspire me, they literally, I don't know, it was a phenomenon in the States, I know, with the song by Megan Thee Stallion and Cardi B, that song that was like, very, very famous became a chant at one of our protests and, you know, people were very much focusing on the, you know, lurid language or how crude it was. But if you listen to them, they're like, this is revolutionary to me and this is how I express myself. So, instead of being constrained in a box, I think, when it comes to respectability and how you speak to certain people, for example, a minister, a lawmaker, a policymaker, it's very easy to make yourself small when you enter that space. But they've really taught me the art of I have the right to be here, I have the right to speak to you and bring your attention to this cause. And however, I need to do that, yes, I'm going to do it in a way that you understand that it's important. But if that doesn't work, I have other avenues of getting you to listen to me. And sometimes it's not a pretty picture, unfortunately.

Paul Meunier 

Wonderful answer. And you're right, they're very inspiring. And they do give us a sense of what we're doing is so important, and we've got to work really hard at it. When you're meeting with lawmakers and advocating for reproductive rights for all people there do you bring the young people with you? Are they physically there in the meetings or are you acting as a representative of them?

Tuli Kamati 

So, it's twofold. One of the things that we always do is, especially in our organization is capacitation. So, the younger staff member in our team is actually should be 19, turning 20. That's quite young if you look at someone having the opportunity to meet with a lawmaker. But what we do is, we always try and capacitate. So as director, I always ensure that there's someone with me if someone has never been in that space before I take that person along with me. And I always tell them if we're given the opportunity to ask questions, whether it's off the record, because most times, we either record the meetings, or we take very strict minutes, so that we're able to report back to the people we're representing. So, I will always take someone with me that can learn from that setting and ask questions as well, because sometimes there's something I didn't think about, for example. And it also just capacities that person because capacity building is something that's very important, especially in the civil society space.

Paul Meunier 

I do a lot of advocating with legislators and lawmakers here as well. And I know the importance of bringing a young person and their voice into the room with me. What do you think that they want lawmakers to understand about them? What is the message you're getting from young people that you're trying to convey to lawmakers?

Tuli Kamati 

I think young people in general, just want to be afforded the chance to live freely, without any oppression. I think that's the one thing that I'm learning. A lot of times, especially in a country like Namibia, where poverty is so multidimensional, where the gap between the rich and the poor is so wide, people want to live in a space where they can just, you know, afford to buy their groceries, get a job, buy a house, or afford housing, water, sanitation, healthcare, just basic needs. If people's basic needs are met, I think that's the main thing. Basic needs are met, then people will be fine and okay. But unfortunately, that's not happening, and we're not being heard. And so the one thing that I can say that young people really want is to live freely and to be able to live a livable,  I think what I would equate it to is have a livable, you know, life. Because right now, what's happening is not it.

Paul Meunier 

I concur. I think it's the same thing here in the United States. It's very similar and the more people we interview from people in different countries, the more we realize how similar the situations are everywhere. So, in your work with young people and advocating for reproductive rights, you've chosen that as kind of like your main point to focus on, can you tell me why you chose reproductive rights? And what about your situation that drove you into that particular arena to be an advocate for?

Tuli Kamati 

So, I got involved with reproductive health rights, I think 2020 because of a very brilliant person who opened this petition on change.org, I believe, where they were calling for the legalization of, or the repealment of the Abortion and Sterilization Act of 1975. So, that's initially how I got involved. Prior to that, I was very much so just amplifying the voices of the pro-choice movement. I got involved in organizing the protests, amplifying the petition, ensuring that people were seeing it and this was during, like the pandemic. So, it was very difficult to organize everyone to make sure that we're adhering to the codes, we are adhering to, you know, social distancing. That's what really, really sparked my pivot into just broader social justice and bringing it in, owning it into reproductive health rights. And also, just for me, personally, I for three years, I think starting 2017 was, you know, I started having health issues, health complications, that affected school, that affected my life. And it took almost three years just to get, you know, a definite diagnosis of like endometriosis, and then doing that research and finding out that, you know, millions of women have this. But unfortunately, it takes so long to get diagnosed, sometimes it's only discovered during the autopsy. So, there's a little bit of a personal motivation in this as well.

Paul Meunier 

I think that's going to drive you even harder. You have such an altruistic sense for other people, and your willingness to give back plus your personal experience with this makes for the perfect advocate. You bring your own heart and your own experience into this, but then you just care so deeply for other people. I think that's great. You know, when we were first getting to know each other, you were talking about togetherness is something that is really important. Can you just briefly talk about why togetherness is something that's in your vocabulary so strongly?

Tuli Kamati 

You can't do something by yourself or alone. And I think the more I tried to do it by myself, the more I have so much more pushback. So for me, it started with learning how to ride a bike, for example. I thought I could, you know, learn, teach myself. But I had my best friend teach me, I had my friend teach me, I had my brothers teach me. So, just from growing up and having that little community, every single step that you take, sometimes people have this very, you know, cynical worldview where they're like, I pulled myself up by the bootstraps. But I believe that no one can do that. I have so much community, I have so many, I always say that my friends are the family that I chose. And together with them, it's like they lift me up, they hold me up. When society is like, Oh, she's turning 30, she doesn't have ABCD. They're like, look, you're worthy of love, respect, and everything else that is good in the world, regardless of your social status, regardless of your class, regardless of your education, regardless of if you have anything at all. So, community is the one thing that has helped me stay afloat. It's the one thing that has helped me push and push for the agenda of pro-choice, of anti-bigoted world. That's the one thing that has taught me so much, especially when the most oppressed communities are always the ones who are showing up for everyone else. So, that is one thing that togetherness has taught me.

Paul Meunier 

Beautifully said. And as if you're not doing enough already, you mentioned you're pursuing your medical degree to become a doctor. I don't know how you do it. I know when we first met and getting to know each other, you said you don't sleep very much. And I believe that's probably very true, because I don't know how you do everything that you do. But what kind of medicine are you hoping to get into? And how do you hope to use your medical training as a doctor to help facilitate this altruistic cause you're working on?

Tuli Kamati 

Initially, I wanted to be a heart surgeon. But I think since the work I've started doing and listening to women, listening to people with a capacity for pregnancy, and how sometimes that choice, you know, is either taken from them or they're not able to, you know, navigate that space of reproductive healthcare in a manner that's respectful, in a manner that provides a safe space for them. I've pivoted towards obstetrics and gynecology way more. I think that in itself sort of aligns with my social justice issues. Specifically with having someone listen to you. It's very hard, you know, to live in the society where a lot of times my pain scale on the daily could be, you know, a nine out of 10 If you ask me. But that's normal for me and someone could have a pain scale out of three. And that's like normal for them. So, I think just wanting to be in a profession or a specialty where I'm able to provide a safe space for everyone that I come into contact with. Yeah.

Paul Meunier 

Well, good luck to you, I'm certain that you're going to do well. And there's no doubt that you're gonna take everything that you have, all your abilities, all the incredible lessons that your parents and other people around you who have been influential have poured into you, have made you into a person that is so good for everybody in your community, and so good for everybody around the world. And I just know, you're going to continue to just have great successes and bring your ability to help to a whole new level when you start being able to talk and provide medical services to people that aren't able to normally access them, or make it so there's policies around so people do have access to them. Nobody should have to live in pain, nobody should have to live with an incomplete or inaccurate diagnosis. People deserve to have the healthcare that they need to be treated fairly and equitable in this world. And you are leading the charge on that. And so I want to thank you on behalf of all of our listeners, for pouring everything that you have, sacrificing sleep, sacrificing your need to be in this, well, your desire or ability to be in the center, but putting other people's needs first. That truly is an admirable trait. And I'm glad that I got to know you. Thank you for being a guest on The Passionate Youth Worker podcast.

Tuli Kamati 

Thank you so much for having me.

Paul Meunier 

You bet. Tuli, before we go, as you know, I always give the guest the last word. So, what words of wisdom or inspiration would you like to leave with our listeners?

Tuli Kamati 

So, I thought long and hard about this, so I did write it down. I think the words of wisdom I'd like to leave is kindness is the language of humanity that transcends barriers, connects hearts, and rebuilds bridges. It's not just an act, but a legacy that I want to build. And that is how I wish to transform the world.

Paul Meunier 

If you would like to share your passion for youth work, we'd love to spotlight you as a guest. If you have feedback about the show, please let us know. Just visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org and click on the podcast tab. This podcast is made possible in part due to a generous contribution from M Health Fairview. I'm your host Paul Meunier. Thanks for listening to The Passionate Youth Worker.