Ta'Shena Sams 

You know, we're using our voices now. And it's not just me, it's a whole generation of all of us around the globe that are just saying, You know what, we were here and we want you guys to understand us. We're not anything like the movies depict us. So I think you we really just have a really good generation that was taught to speak your mind, do it respectfully, and not to back down.

Paul Meunier 

Hello, I'm Paul Meunier, the executive director of the Youth Intervention Programs Association. And I'm a youth worker at heart. How lucky am I, I have the privilege to meet youth workers from around the globe and learn their stories and share them with the entire world. I'm glad you're listening. Because together we'll learn how their life experiences shape their youth work. As you listen, I encourage you to consider how your experiences shape what you have to offer young people. Welcome to this edition of The Passionate Youth Worker. Hi, everybody. For this episode, we're joined by to Ta'Shena Sams from Michigan in the United States. She is the youth coordinator and program director of Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians. She started working in youth programs at a very early age. And now she can't imagine herself not working with young people. Ta'Shena, thanks for being a guest on the show.

Ta'Shena Sams 

Thank you for having me.

Paul Meunier 

It's wonderful to have you with us. And when we first begin putting together a podcast, we always spend some time with the guests getting to know each other and understanding their life situation a little bit better. And one of the questions I always like to ask a guest, Ta'Shena, is why did you want to be on the podcast in the first place? And just about everybody we've talked to said they were just wanting to tell their story or have some, you know, ideas that they wanted to share with other youth workers. But you had a different response. You said you were kind of reluctant to do this podcast. Can you talk a little bit about why? I don't know, maybe this podcast isn't the most right thing for you to be doing?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Well, I've never done one before. And I'm really not someone that likes a lot of attention on them. Small example, I didn't even want a big wedding. When I married my husband, I wanted it very private, but my parents kind of just took off with that. So, like I'm a really private person, I don't like a lot of attention on me and then kind of felt a little bit obligated since I won the award. And it is just a new experience that I have as well, too, that I can let people know about on my first podcast. I think this is going kind of well so far.

Paul Meunier 

So far, so good. And you're right, you don't like to have the attention drawn to you, when you won the Friends of Youth Leadership Award, you were kind of not super excited about doing the little video with that. But it was on a much deeper level, I think, Ta'Shena, you just don't like to have attention drawn to you for something that you feel like you should be doing in the first place. I mean, is that kind of a good way to describe it?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Yes, that is exactly the best way to describe it. I do what I do, because I want to. It's not something that I'm looking out for "good jobs" or anything like that. This is just this is my job, this is you know, my life, what I am devoted to. So, it's just, this is what you get, I don't need recognition for it.

Paul Meunier 

That's amazing. Because most people like to hear that "good job, you're doing great, keep going" sense of encouragement that we get from our peers or supervisors. But you almost are just the opposite of that. You don't really even want that. You'd like to just do it because it's the right thing to do. Where does that deep sense of humility or maybe altruism come from? I mean, why are you so just willing to give without recognition?

Ta'Shena Sams 

I think it's kind of just comes from who I am as a person. With Native Americans we're given seven grandfather teachings and humility is one of them. So, I'm not saying that I practice all of these all the time. Of course, there's times where I am not. I don't, you know, use humility at all. And then it's just from my upbringing with my parents as well. This is what I was taught you do something because you want to, not to get recognition for it. And that's kind of how my parents are as well.

Paul Meunier 

It's a wonderful trait to have in the field of youth work to be so humble and to be so focused on the success of other people that sometimes we sacrifice, maybe things that would feel good to us, just because we want to see other people succeed. So, your parents definitely seemed to instill that value in you. What did they do as parents to instill that into you? Was it just setting the example? Or did they literally talk about those seven teachings and as parents talk to you about the importance of humility?

Ta'Shena Sams 

It's actually both. I grew up very culturally-centered, or with my parents, that's something that they, you know, really instilled in us. My dad didn't get a lot of that growing up. And my mom didn't have any of it at all. So, there's just things that they realize that they didn't have growing up that they're going to make sure that we have, as in my brothers and sisters. And you know, a lot of it was a lot of culture teachings that my dad would give us and to our community. And then that's just how my parents just were they were just like, you're here to be, we're good people, Native Americans are good people, we always want the best for everyone. So, that was just kind of what they instilled in me and my brothers and sisters growing up.

Paul Meunier 

Well, they certainly did a nice job, because you are carrying that forward in a big way. I know in your work you are carrying on those traditions, and the stories and the lessons that your community lives by and carries forward and tries to instill in young people. And how important is that to you to carry their legacy forward and give those lessons and that sense of humility and connectedness to other generations that are coming of age?

Ta'Shena Sams 

I don't really think of it as a legacy, it's just who our people are. A lot of these traditions and beliefs, we're losing them, our language, because a lot of you know the elders that did know them, they're dying off. So, it's just something that we're given and that I feel is important for my community to know. And I don't know all the answers, I'm still learning as well. So, I really like to have our whole community come together. You know a little bit about something I know a little bit about something, let's bring our teachings together. Because every teaching we get is you're given it a little bit different. And, you know, no way is right because who can say what is right on our teachings when they're just so far gone. As in I don't mean really as in gone just, they've changed over the years. So, everyone gets a little bit different. So, it's just nice to have everyone come together and give what they have learned. And that's kind of what me and my coworkers are trying to do is get our communities back together so that we can keep providing these teachings to all of our youth and families.

Paul Meunier 

Those teachings and the culture of Native Americans just is so fascinating to me because it just seems so spot on to what it means to be a human being. I think that sometimes the Western culture doesn't cling on to that stuff not nearly enough, I think, to make the world a better place for the next generation and a better place for the next generation. You said that those teachings are changing over time. Would you say that they're improving or because they aren't taught the same way are they losing some of its value or strength in the lesson?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Yes, I think it's more of losing its value and strength. Just like I said, we have a lot of our elders that knew these teachings or had somewhat of the teachings are, you know, they're gone, they're passing, they're at that time, I actually see a lot of tribes around Michigan, bringing a lot of those cultural teachings back. So, I don't want to say that it's not devalued, or it's changing, but there are changes to it as we progress. But it's really important that we stick to what was taught to us and not changing it as the times go. Because that's not what we did as people. We kept the same traditions, we didn't change them just because the year is changing, the times are changing. It's really important to keep our traditions alive.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, I believe that to be very true. And I and I hope that is the case that those traditions do stay alive. And hopefully they gain some of their strength and prevalence in your community because they seem like they're wonderful things. This next question is going to come from a person of privilege that just wants to understand better but I understand the history of how Europeans traditionally have treated Native Americans. I mean, they did horrible things to people with the boarding schools and tried to strip people of their culture and made deals that they didn't hold up to, all those kinds of things as a way to almost erase the history of Native American people. But it feels to me as a white privileged person that the acceptance of the Native American culture and the Native American practices seem to be gaining some momentum as very legitimate, valid and very worthwhile contributions to society in general. Would you agree with that? Or is that just my take on it coming from a privileged person?

Ta'Shena Sams 

I guess I'm a little bit confused. What was the, you said it like a lot, so I'm just trying to take everything in?

Paul Meunier 

It feels to me like that so much of the culture and history of the Native Americans has been attempted to been erased. But it feels like lately there's more acceptance of understanding how valuable and how meaningful and how insightful and how just human the teachings of the Native culture were. And it seems like there's just more of a general acceptance of that and willingness to just take it for what it's worth and understand it, and maybe even try to live some of those principles themselves by people of like the majority culture. And that's what I'm wondering, do you feel like that's changing a little bit, considering where we were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago or maybe even 20 years ago?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Yes, I feel like that is changing a lot. You know, you're getting a generation that is outspoken, that is no longer gonna stay behind the scenes. You know, we're using our voices now. And it's not just me, it's a whole generation of all of us around the globe, that are just saying, you know what, we are here, and we want you guys to understand us, we're not anything like the movies depict us. So, I think we really just have a really good generation that was taught to speak your mind, do it respectfully, and not to back down. So, and I think this is what the world is getting now is a generation that is no longer stepping down, and they're making sure our presence is still known.

Paul Meunier 

That's great. I believe that's true in all cultures and all communities of young people today. Young people are very active, they're very aware. Maybe the internet and the connectedness through social media has changed all that. But it is so encouraging to see young people stepping up, and being involved in a social level and trying to create social change. That is encouraging to hear from your perspective, too. I know you started working in youth programs at a super young age. I mean, really young, how old were you when you started your first experience in a youth program?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Well, my first experience in a youth program was actually at five years old when I attended youth programming here with the tribe. So, lots of experience as a participant. So, I kind of was able to see, you know, the adults working, bringing us together, picking us up. And then it was about 12 years old, got in some trouble with my friends and had to do community service. Our community service was at our annual camp, which again, I've attended since I was eight years old, and kept working at it till now. And we were just junior counselors, we helped with the campers, we cleaned, we cooked, we did all anything that was asked of us. So, I was doing that for a while. And then just my parents ran the youth programming. So, it was just helping them out. And then 14, I was got into some job readiness programs, which were with youth and kind of just stuck out with those every summer or during the school year. So, I was yeah, pretty young.

Paul Meunier 

I would say. A lot of the people I've interviewed don't get into this until adulthood at some point. But you had an introduction to this at a very early age because your mom and dad worked in youth programming, is that correct?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Correct. Yes.

Paul Meunier 

And what did they do? What was their role?

Ta'Shena Sams 

My dad was a youth coordinator. So, he planned activities for the youth around here, like an after-school program, summer program. And then my mom was actually an administrator for the youth program and did all their paperwork and did attend the events too. And, you know, probably chaperoned to the events because she was always there. And then she became a program director for youth services and was doing that for a while. And then I was 18 and got a job as the office manager for youth services and was headed my way.

Paul Meunier 

Well, that's interesting. We have to take a short break. We're halfway through our interview already. But when we come back, I'd like to learn a little bit more about your work in supporting young people so we'll be right back.

Jade Schleif 

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Paul Meunier 

Ta'Shena, right before the break I was talking about learning more about your direct service to young people, and you've been doing this work literally your entire life. When you were younger and first started working doing community service, and then at 18, you got a job as an office manager. I mean, did you always know this is what you want to do for many, many years?

Ta'Shena Sams 

No, this wasn't anything that I wanted to do. You know, I had dreams of becoming a teacher, you know, a doctor, you know, all these other things that you want to do as in different steps in your life. But sometimes that just doesn't always work out either. Maybe you don't have the financial needs to go to college. That's, you know, we do some of us, but I have really bad anxiety. So, you know, that kept me from going to college for a while. And then I wanted to be a teacher. But you know, with so much going on with Natives in the school system, I'd be fighting with the school system more than I'd be helping out the youth. And I realized that and was just like that I don't want to be a teacher anymore. So, with that I did a nail technician for a little bit, through me way off that. I've learned how to do nails. That's fun. I liked doing that. In my spare time, I was going to actually leave youth work to go do nails. So, I started going to school and was like I want to do something different. It didn't work out. I'm still doing youth work. So, I do nails, but I don't use it. So...

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. So, you literally have been doing this your entire life, haven't you?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Yes.

Paul Meunier 

That's great. And you mentioned that you have anxiety? Does the anxiety interfere with your ability to do work? And how do you cope with your anxiety because I know a lot of people have anxiety, especially today.

Ta'Shena Sams 

It doesn't really interfere with my work unless like I'm pushing for something and I know that our youth really, really need it. And then I'm like, Oh my God, how could our management not see what we're doing? And it just that's what it is. But my anxiety more is new things. You know, I'm a rez girl, I stayed on our rez. I mean, my parents live about 10 minutes off of the rez, but I was on the rez. I went to school, we came back on the rez. So, you know a lot of the world isn't really shown. It's you know, it's just given to us as like, it's a big world out there. That's a lot that we get when we were growing up. So, anything new I kind of get anxiety about but then I try to take back and sit back and really think Man, this is an opportunity. Like right now this podcast was an opportunity that I might not never get. And I'm pretty sure it's the first time I've ever been offered it. So, I mean, it's just like, I'm now at that age where I'm like, Alright, you got to do this stuff. And I might have missed a lot of stuff growing up with that anxiety. But I also had a lot of good experiences too, and knowing what I can and can't do as as an adult.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Do you think young people that you work with on the reservation there in your program do they have those same kind of dilemmas about It's a big world out there, but yet, it's a wonderful place here. I have a lot of support. But yet the other world is so tempting. There's other things to go see. I know you even mentioned when we were getting to know each other that you had just recently gone to your first baseball game, and what an experience that was. Are other young people that you work with, are they kind of going through the same dilemma, do you think?

Ta'Shena Sams 

I would say yeah, like a lot of our kids, they might not even know that you know that they're just on the rez until they get older and they realize like, wow, there's a lot of stuff going on. There's colleges all over. There's just so much temptation too so I mean, that could be a fear for some of them too. But it's, I would say yeah, like we are pretty much sheltered here. And I didn't realize that either until I had a coworker, and was like let's go to a baseball game, which is a good friend of mine now. And I was just like that baseball game? We have people, kids, and they all play baseball, they go to baseball games, but it was just like a new thing for me and a new thing for my outside family. My parents were very shocked by it as well. So, it's just people do it. I mean, all of our kids do it, but it was just a new thing for me. So, I think the experiences too yeah, we are we can get pretty sheltered on that kind of stuff. And that's just might be financial too, not being able to participate in a lot of that stuff as well.

Paul Meunier 

Everybody who works with young people brings something to the table that's just uniquely them. Ta'Shena, what have you learned about working with young people that you can offer them in your support of their development?

Ta'Shena Sams 

There's a couple different things. Again, I mentioned this in the video before that, you know, youth are gonna do what they want to do. But it's your job just to guide them, and just, you know, to remind them, like, these are the options that you have when you're doing that. But don't try to change it because then you know, they're not living the life that they want to. You just need to be there to give them support on their decisions. And that's really, really hard to do, especially when you have worked with this youth from five, and now they're 16, 17. And they're not really doing the greatest but they look for you for support, too. And sometimes, you know, you just have to remember that it's not, it's not all about being an adult figure, you have to, you know, get down to their level and be like, Alright, when I was 17, 16, yeah, I was doing that stuff, too. Or, man, I wasn't really doing that because I see my friends doing it. So, just, you know, having those experiences with them, too. And then just to be there for them. And if you say you're gonna be there, you be there, because a lot of the times there's somebody in their life or multiple people, you're the only person that has a sense, or maybe the only safe person in their life.

Paul Meunier 

Really good insight because I think you clearly have been a stable person that young people have seen for many, many years in a row, right? You've probably watched a couple of generations come through the programs now and, and move on. And you've been that stable force all the way through, which is, I think, one of the common denominators that a lot of young people who use youth support programs to help with their development are missing. They don't have that stability, that kind of support system that they need. I'm wondering, what is it like for you, when you see a young person coming to your program at five, six, or seven, and then you see them go off somewhere, when they become young adults, do you feel a sense of loss or do you feel a sense of hopefulness and satisfaction that you were there as a, as a person in their life?

Ta'Shena Sams 

It's both. You know, you get attached to these kids, and you're, they're coming to your program all the time, and then they grow up, and they're no longer a part of your program anymore. So, yeah, it's just like, you sit there and start thinking about all the good times you had with them. But then you have more kids coming in, so that, you know, helps replace it. And I am so excited. It doesn't, you don't even have to be my youth when I hear a Native youth and they're recognized for something I just was at a powwow over the weekend. And one of the youth just graduated from COVID with being valedictorian, and that was just like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even have any part of that person's life. But just the proudness that I got is just, I'm so proud of them when our kids make good choices. Well, even when they make their bad choices, you know, it’s learning lessons, that they get to go on and be successful. But yeah, no, it's very rewarding. Whether I'm a part of it or not.

Paul Meunier 

That is the part of this work. I think that it's universal that people who support young people get the satisfaction, such a deep satisfaction of seeing young people do well and develop their skills and their talents in a way that can be beneficial to this world in some sort of capacity. And that gets back to at the very beginning of this podcast interview with you, you talked about you don't like doing things for the recognition, you like doing it for the internal gratification. Maybe that's what is the most rewarding thing for you, is not that you were even involved in that person, but just that person succeeded.

Ta'Shena Sams 

Yeah, I mean, I'm one of them. I have a high school diploma and I'm still working on my college degree. And it's something I've been working on, you know, since I left high school at 18. So like it, it's very rewarding when I hear any of our youth or any youth succeed. Whether it's, they're just finishing, they got 100% on their test and they've struggled all the time on it. All of that stuff is very rewarding, and it doesn't matter who they are.

Paul Meunier 

Your stick-to-it-iveness is incredible. You've been working on and off at getting your college degree for a long time. Why is that so important? Why do you keep going back to that despite the obstacles that keep stopping you from fulfilling that kind of mission of yours?

Ta'Shena Sams 

Well, when we were like growing up, it was drilled on us go to high school, finish school, go to college, get a college degree, make sure that you know you we get free tuition here in Michigan for Native youth and like it's paid for and use it, why aren't you using it? So, I like it, a lot of that. And then I feel again, like a little bit of obligation, but I like it that it's taking me this long to do it because I have lots of youth that struggled right now in grade school that are struggling right now in middle and high school, and their college is just not even on the radar. So, when a college is brought up, I'm like, I'm still struggling, I don't even have my degree, I take a couple classes, I take a break, I take a couple classes. And I said, it's just all about timing and what works for you. So, one day I'll get it and I'll be happy and proud because I know I'll be the first person within my family that has a college degree. And if it takes me a little bit longer, that's fine as well, too. It's just accomplishing it and letting kids know too, like I'm not preaching, go to college, go to college, and then I don't have a college degree. So, that's kind of like where that comes from a little bit, too.

Paul Meunier 

You're so consistent in who you are, as a person, it just keeps coming through time and time again. Now that we've made it most of the way through the podcast Ta'Shena, and the listeners won't know this, but we had some technical difficulties and it's taken a couple tries to get this done. Your persistence has been really impressive considering that you really didn't want to do this in the first place. How are you feeling about the podcast in doing it now and sharing your story?

Ta'Shena Sams 

It feels good. I'm really hoping it goes all the way through though. I've talked about what work is like I've done this thing three times. Now it's like, yes. Hmm. But I mean, it is what it is. And again, like I said, it's a learning experience and technical difficulties that happens. But it also gave me you know, you guys got to know me more. And it also made me you know, think about some of the things I said and if that's really what I wanted to say or not say or how I really felt. So, I feel like this one kind of got it down better.

Paul Meunier 

It's easy to see why you were nominated for the friends of Youth Leadership Award. Your steadiness and your consistency and your persistence and your commitment to tradition and sharing of culture and values with other people is so impressive. You give of yourself on such a deep level, and ask for hardly anything in return other than just somebody else's success. That's, in my mind, the epitome of what altruism is. And the ability to just give of yourself in a way that is sometimes even sacrificing to your own personal needs. And I, for one, am super grateful that we got to know you, we were able to share your story with other people in hopes that your story will inspire other people to be that consistent force and to be that steady hand and to care so deeply about other people. So, thank you for being a guest on the podcast. And also thank you for stepping out of your comfort zone and sharing your story with our listeners.

Ta'Shena Sams 

Thank you again for having me.

Paul Meunier 

Before we go Ta'Shena, I always like to ask the guest the last question, what words of wisdom or inspiration would you like to leave with the listeners?

Ta'Shena Sams 

I think what sums it up best is a phrase in my language, which is aambe kinoomaadidaa. And what that means is come let's work together, come let's teach each other. I think that's what works best for this is I'm doing this so people can learn about me, learn about you. And I think that's what sums it up is aambe kinoomaadidaa.

Paul Meunier 

If you would like to share your passion for youth work, we'd love to spotlight you as a guest. If you have feedback about the show, please let us know. Just visit training.yipa.org That's training.yipa.org and click on the podcast tab. This podcast is made possible in part due to a generous contribution from M Health Fairview. I'm your host Paul Meunier. Thanks for listening to The Passionate Youth Worker.