Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

The biggest part of the narrative is when I shifted my own perspective from focusing on the youth as the problem to on myself as the problem. And maybe the youth is trying to communicate something but they don't have the words, their brain has shut down, and so they don't have the means in the moment. Or something else is happening that I've completely missed. And so what am I bringing to the conversation that is helping or harming the situation?

Paul Meunier 

Hello, I'm Paul Meunier, the executive director of the Youth Intervention Programs Association. And I'm a youth worker at heart. How lucky am I, I have the privilege to meet youth workers from around the globe and learn their stories and share them with the entire world. I'm glad you're listening because together, we'll learn how their life experiences shape their youth work. As you listen, I encourage you to consider how your experiences shape what you have to offer young people. Welcome to this edition of The Passionate Youth Worker.  Hi, everybody, welcome to this bonus edition of The Passionate Youth Worker podcast. Have you ever held someone in high regard and then watched them go on to do something really, really cool? Something you know is going to help people and know that they did it for all the right reasons. I've had a few chances in my lifetime where I just sat back in awe of someone for their accomplishments. And it's an amazing feeling. Well, this happened to me again, very recently. Someone who I've known for a long time, who has been in the YIPA community since I first started back in 2011, just did something really cool. And I'd like to tell you about her. To this day, I have such fond memories of speaking to large groups of youth workers. And I can still see this smiling and familiar face in the crowd, always there, seemingly soaking up anything and everything that YIPA could provide to her. Her name is Allegra Birdseye-Hannula. And she just wrote this most amazing book called How to Talk to Porcupines: A Youth Worker's Communication Field Guide. She asked me to preview her book, which I did. And I was not only honored to do it, but I was blown away by her ability to create the perfect metaphor for what it's like to work with young people. This is another one of those moments for me when I'm in awe of her and her book. And I simply just couldn't be more happy for her. And because her book relates so nicely to the mission of YIPA and this podcast, I asked her to be a guest on the show. And wouldn't you know, lucky for me, she said, Yep, I'll do it. I'm thrilled to introduce you to her. Allie, thanks for being a guest on this bonus edition of The Passionate Youth Worker podcast.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Thank you, Paul. I am so excited and happy and honored to be here.

Paul Meunier 

Well, the feeling is mutual. Allie, a lot of us get into this field of youth work not directly but on a path that just kind of kept pulling us into it. But I'm wondering about your story and what it's like and how you got to get to this point where you wrote this unbelievably cool book. When did you first know that you wanted to be a youth worker?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

That is the question of all questions. Like a lot of us, my path was windy, and zig-zaggy and I was so heavily involved in the community and youth programs as a teenager. And then through college, I did a lot of work in my after-school program in the community. And it just continued to pull me back, a lot of tutoring, a lot of mentoring. So, it only felt natural that when I moved to the Twin Cities in Minnesota in the United States that I ended up working for   an employer who offered an after-school program. And that's where I really fell in love with youth. That's how I stumbled across the YIPA and continued my own learning journey as a youth worker and it just continued to grow from there.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, I was wondering how you got connected with YIPA in the first place. Where were you working and were they a member of YIPA, was that how you got connected?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Oh, I don't know that memberships had been officially launched. It was still an evolving space at that time. But they were not an institutional member at the time. I can't speak for it now. But it was a homeless shelter in downtown Minneapolis. And I stumbled across an advertisement or something somewhere and brought it to my direct supervisor and said, hey, I'm gonna go check this out. What do you think? And she said alright, cool, super supportive of it. I brought her along for the journey. She was a member for a while as an individual. We've since both parted ways from that organization. And I continue to support and get excited every time I get an email that says there's a new training available, check it out. Yeah, that was my initial step in.

Paul Meunier 

Who would have thought all those years ago when you and I first met back in 2011 that here we'd be doing a podcast and sharing your story with the world? Who would have thought that that was going to be our future, huh?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Right? The evolution of YIPA and our relationship and everything that the organization has been doing, I would not have guessed.

Paul Meunier 

Well, how did you get into youth work then? Did people encourage you to do it? Was your family involved in youth work, things like that?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I am a fiercely independent person and fiercely stubborn. So, I'm sure well, I know that when my family suggested things, I went the other direction, tried something else for a while and came back.

Paul Meunier 

Okay.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

My grandmother was a fourth-grade teacher her entire career. And she was heavily involved in our entire childhood, right, lots of gramma school, as she called it, where it was my mom's way of giving, getting a break and sending us over to spend time with her. She was heavily involved in our school and our after school and just a huge part of our life. So, I saw teaching as a profession, I did not see it as a profession for myself. So, I went to school for something completely different, thinking I was going to go into international relations or law or something along those lines, and I boomeranged back around. While working at that homeless shelter in Minneapolis, one of my volunteer tutors suggested and asked if I considered a career in teaching. And I heard that question, thought, hmm that's very interesting, in every sense of the Minnesota term of interesting that exists. I thought about that for a while. And it was a short time thereafter that I enrolled in a graduate teaching program and pursued my teaching license. But that was probably, outside of YIPA's opportunities, that was my first foray into officially learning about how to support young people.

Paul Meunier 

So, did you teach then for a number of years and why are you still not teaching?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

It's a great question. And one that I have thought about consistently. So, I got my degree in secondary social studies teaching. And at the time that I graduated, the opportunities for secondary social studies teachers were few and far between. It's a very hotly pursued space. And there's a lot of folks who are doing really great work in that space, at that time and today. And so, I figured, you know, I can spend a little bit more time in my current role teaching adult learners and use that skill set. And when I find an opportunity that opens up, I'll take it. Well, then the pandemic happened. And teaching licenses in the state of Minnesota expire after five years. And if you're not affiliated with a school district, it's really hard to keep up your secondary teaching licenses. So, I was not able to continue that teaching license. But I do continue to educate adult learners and use that in practice every day. And then I work directly with youth and try to support youth-focused organizations, after my full-time job of educating adult learners.

Paul Meunier 

Wow. So, you are still teaching, you're just doing it a different realm. But you haven't given up on the young people. I think that is really cool and admirable of you, that you have such a passion for this. As a fiercely independent young person, do you think that helps you today working with young people, having that rebel inside you? Because we know that's inherent in a lot of the young people that youth- serving programs work with. The young people that want to do exactly the opposite of what somebody suggests they should do. Did that help you in some sort of way do you think?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

You know, I think it helps and it harms a little bit. I think about a kiddo I was working with, she was using some very colorful language, so swear words, in an after-school program. And you know, that wasn't allowed in that particular program. And so, my way of trying to say, hey, stop doing that was something to the effect of, please choose different language to try to, you know, encourage her to shift and change the way that she was thinking about that expression. So, she chose different colorful language.

Paul Meunier 

She did exactly what she asked her to do, right?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Exactly, right. So, I heard that I thought, huh, that's exactly what I might have tried to do. Fair play, I accept. Let's not swear anymore, right. But I changed my own approach to that conversation. But I think it helps in some ways, right? It helps me recognize what's maybe happening behind the behaviors or the personalities that are coming into the room. But it can also harm because sometimes I can get stuck in my approach. And that might not be the right way for that particular individual. You know, I think about classroom teaching, sometimes I was sticking to the PowerPoint presentation for that particular lesson instead of like a more seasoned teacher might say, this is just not working. We are going to shift this entirely and flip it to a Socratic method style conversation instead of a PowerPoint lecture where we engage by raising our hands and whatnot. So, I think it plays both ways. And recognizing that is something that has actually helped more than just being fiercely independent.

Paul Meunier 

I have just one more question about you, to get to know us or listeners have a better idea of who you are. And then I'm so eager to talk to you about your book. But when you were younger, what was your school experience like for you and were you a good student, and were you a good community-involved person as a young person or did you get into trouble?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

It sounds like five questions.

Paul Meunier 

It was.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

So, I'll start with the first part of it. My school experience was varied. And I was very fortunate. So, I think I went to three or four different schools in the community, although stabilized at one elementary school, it was a magnet school. And so that meant that I was allowed to opportunities to pursue technology, science, arts, and music. And it really focused on those core areas which helped at a critical time in my elementary school years so that I could explore WorldBeat Drumming, I could explore how to operate on an Apple computer because apples were all the thing in school, they still kind of are depending on the district. But I was able to play in those spaces which helped inform my high school experiences, and then my college and graduate experiences. So, when I look back, a lot of my reflections on school are around the extracurriculars and the enrichment activities, not so much on the schooling itself, which I hope a lot of other folks have those opportunities too. School and my personality fit really well. I was very good at answering questions and getting on the teacher's good side, and very good at knowing how to play the game. So, I'd say holistically, it was a good fit for me. I recognize that's not the case for every individual. And so, I was fortunate in that regard that school was a positive place for me to be. It was exciting. I learned a lot. It's informed who I am today. And it fit my personality.

Paul Meunier 

Wow. And as a teacher, I bet you were working very hard at trying to give each young person a chance to feel connected and a sense of belonging so they could have that same experience that you had. That's wonderful.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Exactly.

Paul Meunier 

So, now you went on and wrote this cool book. Why did you decide to write this book? Allie?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I love that question. There are a couple tiers to it. Well, the book itself is inspired by a workshop. And the first time I debuted this workshop was actually at a YIPA Fest several years ago. I did a live presentation of How to Talk to Porcupines and it was something to the effect of bridging communication gaps or communication divides. And it was a pretty large breakout session, there was a lot of great energy and interaction. And so I thought, well, I might try this again, there seems to be some excitement around how do we all share our best practices and ideas and tips and tricks on engaging with youth who bring different perspectives and behaviors and personalities and whatnot. So, that was the root. I continued to offer that workshop, you know, most recently I think we did a workshop in 2021 together and it was a virtual workshop that's still On-Demand today, I believe. And after that workshop, I was talking with my spouse, I was super energized and excited by all of the online engagement with the participants and I couldn't stop talking his ear off, right up until bedtime. Right? So, I'm really dynamic and energized. And just before he turns out the light, he says something to the effect of Have you ever thought of making that workshop into a book? And I said, nah, that’s a terrible idea, what are you talking, about that's awful. So, he turns out the light, we roll over, and I read the book mentally in my brain throughout the night, right? I'm not sleeping that entire night. I'm pretending trying to sleep. So, the next morning, I wake up and thought, well, I think there's some root here. And that was really the jumping off point for where it converted from a workshop to a book that is more accessible to folks across the country and the world.

Paul Meunier 

Well, your husband had a great idea and you follow through with beautiful delivery of your field guide book. And I've got some more questions to ask you but we do have to take a short break. So, we'll be right back after this.

Jade Schleif 

No matter how you support our young people, The Professional Youth Worker, powered by YIPA, has your training and learning needs covered. Visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org to see for yourself, and then join the 1000s of youth workers around the globe who learn from our easy to access exceptional trainings. From our blogs to our podcast, The Professional Youth Worker is your go-to resource for tools to help you keep going, keep learning, and keep growing. Members enjoy free unlimited access to Live Online and On-Demand trainings, and a preferred discount pricing for one-of-a-kind certificate course. Annual memberships are ridiculously affordable for individuals and organizations. Visit training.yipa.org today to learn more. That's training.yipa.org.

Paul Meunier 

Allie, right before the break you were just telling us about how you came to be that you wrote this book. And what do you hope your book, How to Talk to Porcupines, is going to do for youth workers? What can they expect to get if they read this book?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I really hope that this book offers another opportunity for youth workers to practice communication tools to better and more effectively engage with youth who have or are demonstrating prickly personalities in the moment. I remember my own foray into youth work, it took a lot of trial and error to find an approach that worked for me when I worked with prickly personalities. One of the many reasons why I gravitated towards YIPA because you could talk with members and learn and then also access those learnings. But I really hope that the book helps give some of those tips and tricks upfront, some of the research-based, evidence-based best practices that I've learned along my own career and professional journey, all in one succinct place that youth workers can use as a reflection guide. It's not a book where I am writing at you. It's a book that's intended to sit back, read some of the content, think about it, maybe jot down some notes, maybe put the book away for a little bit of time and then come back to it later, right. It's a guide, it's a field guide that you can pick up and hopefully use as you start your career as a youth worker or your youth work journey. Or even at the midpoint or you know, as a seasoned youth worker coming back to reflect on what is my communication style? Is it serving the youth that I'm working with? How can I adjust? So, I think that's the big perspective that I'm bringing with that book. What I hope it can do is just offer some more perspective and opportunities to reflect for youth workers.

Paul Meunier 

I've had the opportunity in my career to train people most of my adult life in this area of working with young people. And for quite a few years, I worked as a lead of a therapeutic team in a setting for EBD program, and trained a team of about 100 people. And one of the most common things people would always ask me is, what do you say when...? What do I say to somebody who's doing this...? And the hardest answer I always had to give them is I can't tell you what to say. It's not, there's no magic word. Every situation is so different. Every young person is so different. And every person expressing what should be said is got to come from what's true and congruent with who they are and the experiences they have. What I love about your book is that it is that communication guide, it's the ability to get people to think, what would I answer in that situation? How did you tune into that as being one of the most critical things that youth workers need to learn is finding their own voice, finding what they can bring to the youth work and just giving them bumpers, so to speak, of how to deal with some of those prickly situations?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Yeah, I love that. The biggest part of the narrative is when I shifted my own perspective from focusing on the youth as the problem to on myself as the problem. And maybe the youth is trying to communicate something but they don't have the words. Their brain has shut down and so they don't have the means in the moment, or something else is happening that I've completely missed. And so, what am I bringing to the conversation that is helping or harming the situation. And that was the pivotal point where I shifted the narrative from, it's all about us as adults and our experience to wait a minute, let's get back at the heart of what youth work is. Youth work is supporting youth, it's helping take them through that developmental period, helping them work through some of those big hairy emotions in the moment. And then giving them tools so that they can adjust and address those situations better in the future. Recognizing, you know, maybe they might, it might take them lots of future time to get there, but giving them the space. So, that was the pivotal piece was just recognizing and probably the point where I became more of an adult, and recognizing the world does not revolve around me, as an adult, it revolves around all of us as a community and as youth workers, it's our role to strengthen that community by helping the youth that we serve.

Paul Meunier 

Such wise words and the ability to put yourself in the service of young people and forget what your own needs are, and figure out what the needs of the young people are. As I was previewing your book, and by the way, thank you for trusting me to be one of your first readers of a copy before it was even published. I kept thinking people are going to grow so much if they do this and they take the field guide seriously and use it for what it's worth. What do you think a reader of this book and somebody who uses it, what do you think they'll gain? How will they grow in their own personal work with young people?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

That is a multifaceted question. It goes back to the individual as well. It's what you put into the work. And so this is a field guide. It has reflection points throughout the book for readers, youth workers to sit and think about the information they just received. And so, as a youth worker, what you'll get is what you put into it. If you're speeding along and ignoring the reflection places, you might be processing part of the book. But it's really that reflection piece. And that's so hard for us as adults, let alone as youth workers, to make space for in our daily lives. So, I hope that a reader of the book will pick it up and take the time for the reflection. And through that reflection, you'll get some new perspectives, some new ideas, some new spins on some old ideas, and just different tips and tricks that I have found useful in my practice, that I've learned from other people, and maybe add them to your toolkit. So, when you walk away and have finished digesting the book in whatever fashion works best for you, you're walking away with a different toolkit than you had when you started reading the book. And that's the end goal, is just giving more tips and tricks earlier in our careers as youth workers, and then giving a space to reflect on them throughout our youth work journey.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, and that whole idea of the reflection moments in your field guide is what I think really gives it a lot of power because it's easy as youth workers sometimes to just want to sit and get information and you're just somebody pumping into me and it's going to magically turn out and I'm going to be this incredible person who builds these trusting relationships. But none of that happens unless you put in the hard work. Would you say that ability to do those reflection points is one of the secrets to getting good at this work?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I would say yes. Youth work is a constant reflection on what went well in that interaction. Oh my gosh, what could I have done better. Talking it out with other seasoned professionals or newer professionals because you never know what they're trying that might work that you could pick up, put in your toolbox for a rainy day. It's a lot of reflection and dialogue and just sharing ideas with each other.

Paul Meunier 

As I was reading your book, one of the things that really impressed me is not only is it just actual good information plus all these reflection points, but you give so many examples of your own experience to make it real, to bring it down into exactly what it probably is like to work with young people. How hard was it to recall all those, you know, examples that you give that kind of ground your points?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Some of them were a little bit older. So, it was tapping into the recesses of the memory. Some of them have been scarred into my brain because I realized I made a mistake. And if I could relive that moment, I would hope I'd approach it differently. And then some of them were pretty recent. So, it wasn't as hard to think oh, yeah, that's that one time. And I've been reflecting on, you know, some of the ones I've been scarred in my memories. I've been reflecting on that probably too much. And so, those helped inform what I focused on within the book because those were my own personal learning points. So, I think it was a blend of recency, looking through, I also keep a success binder. So, I keep letters from youth that I've received, I keep pictures, Fuse Bead art, I keep a lot of things from youth just because it's empowering to look back and say, oh, my gosh, yeah, we made a difference in this life, or this youth had a good day on this day. And it's just, you know, fun to remember that. So, I did tap into that binder when I was looking through for some of those scenarios and the examples that are in the book, just as a reminder of oh, yeah, that youth and that relationship, or that moment in that relationship, could be a good example to feature here.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Well, you really did a good job tapping into your memory bank because they really do hit home. And the way you describe them and the way you talk about those moments, reminds me exactly of what it's like to be a youth worker. It was really well done. So, with this book, how can people get it and how do they learn more about you and the work that you do?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I am a huge fan of local bookstores. So, I highly encourage folks to go to their local bookstore and ask. Not every local bookstore is going to carry it. But most local bookstores honor the requests of their guests or their customers. So, I would recommend starting there. You can search for your local bookstores online pretty easily these days. I'd recommend that if you need a good place to start. It's also available through Itasca Distribution, so you could Google Itasca Distribution. And if you absolutely must, you can find it on Amazon, in both print and ebook format. Or you can go to my website, howtotalktoporcupines.com. And you can order it directly from me in that regard, as well as the other things that I'm up to activities, workshops, just tips, tricks. And then you can find me actively promoting, posting, and engaging on social media under the How to Talk to Porcupine accounts on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. So, I'm in a lot of places, also pretty active in my community in the Twin Cities in Minnesota.

Paul Meunier 

Well, we will certainly post the link to your website in the show notes. So, all the listeners, if you are interested in looking at Allie's book, which I encourage you to do, the link to her website is right in the show notes, so you can go get it there.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Thank you, Paul.

Paul Meunier 

You bet. Allie, it has been so fun getting to know you over these years. And I can't imagine what the next cool thing you do is going to be. But I know there's more in there from you. And I am so grateful that you've taken your skills, and your talents and your passion and poured it into our young people because I can think of a more honorable thing for somebody to do to try to make this world a better place and change generations of life ahead of them so that our world and our communities can be a better place. So, thanks for everything you've done. Thanks for being an active member of the YIPA community. And I truly do remember standing talking to large groups of people, and always seeing you smile at me. And it was so reassuring to see you there time after time after time. And thank you so much for being a guest on this bonus edition of The Passionate Youth Worker.

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. I appreciate everything that YIPA does. I am a proud member and a happy supporter of everything you bring to the table as a team.

Paul Meunier 

Allie, before we go, you probably know because I know you listen to this podcast, but I always give our guest the opportunity to close out their episode. So, what words of wisdom or inspiration would you like to leave with our listeners?

Allie Birdseye-Hannula 

I think the big piece here is be curious, ask questions. Think about what the behavior that you're seeing might be telling you or trying to communicate. And then ask another question. What's behind that? And through that curiosity we can uncover so much about the youth we serve, ourselves, and our broader community. So, be curious.

Paul Meunier 

If you would like to share your passion for youth work, we'd love to spotlight you as a guest. If you have feedback about the show, please let us know. Just visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org and click on the podcast tab. This podcast is made possible in part due to a generous contribution from M Health Fairview. I'm your host Paul Meunier. Thanks for listening to The Passionate Youth Worker.