Travis Claybrooks 

I don't like bullies. I love good competition. I love like MMA. I love a good boxing match. I love a good football game. I love a good basketball game, a good competition, right? Where people are equals and have equal opportunity to be competitive. I love that. I abhor people who act as predators, people who take advantage of someone because of a vulnerability or put power over and execute that. I abhor that. And especially that is especially true when I can look at a party and say you should know better.

Paul Meunier 

Hello, I'm Paul Meunier, the executive director of the Youth Intervention Programs Association. And I'm a youth worker at heart. How lucky am I? I have the privilege to meet youth workers from around the globe and learn their stories and share them with the entire world. I'm glad you're listening because together we'll learn how their life experiences shape their youth work. As you listen, I encourage you to consider how your experiences shape what you have to offer young people. Welcome to this edition of The Passionate Youth Worker. Hi, everybody. For this episode, we're joined by Travis Claybrooks from Tennessee in the United States. Travis is the founder and CEO of Raphah Institute. His organization confronts and solves root causes of social harm in the urban south. He's grown into a leader mostly as a result of his faith and discernment. Travis, thanks for being a guest on the podcast.

Travis Claybrooks 

Thanks, Paul. Good to be here.

Paul Meunier 

Discernment is not a word that is often talked about in the youth worker field and I don't know why, but it just isn't. But maybe it should be. So, I'm hoping we can start our interview talking about discernment. To me, I think of discernment as the ability to quickly make judgments and make really good judgments about things. I'm wondering, how would you describe discernment and what kind of discerning abilities do you have?

Travis Claybrooks 

Well, I think discernment has to do with separating or being able to part things, to be able to see differences and to distinguish. And I think having the ability to perceive those differences, and then to be able to define what you see, and the parts that you see. So, that's the way I would frame you know the idea of discerning, especially as it relates to the social context or with people over things or moving through life. Being able to get a blob of life and being able to then see the unique parts like what's here, what's actually here.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, and I know, faith is a big part of your life and discernment is tied into that whole faith discussion, right? And it's, I think, also the ability to do it non judgmentally. Would you say that that's a big part of who you are too and your discernment is that you can work with people who might be doing maybe bad things or terrible things, but not be so judgmental on their total character?

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah, I think probably what you mean by judgmental is, the word I would use is condemnation. I think there's a difference. I think judgment is important. And being judgmental is very important and useful and necessary. I think, though, in response to our judgments, we can have a tendency or a practice of condemning people, of outcasting them, of pushing them away, separating ourselves or separating them from community, from beneficial community. And that's the part that I push back against. I think there's the ability to discern and see, maybe something nefarious is happening or there are nefarious motives, perhaps, I think it's dangerous to get into people's motives, but seeing what you see you make judgments about what you see, and you even make quality judgments about what you see good, bad, useful, not useful, functional, dysfunctional. But then what do we do in response to that? Do we condemn people because something may be dysfunctional? Do we condemn people, you know, because something may be bad? Because we judge it as bad, right? And that's why I try to stop short. I try to fall short of that part. But the judgment is useful. Being judgmental is helpful because that's where empathy can enter. And you come along with the story as you understand it, being able to discern it and judge it and say, you know it shouldn't be this way. Or this is not good. Maybe there's something, a part I can play in making it good, right? So that judgment is helpful. The condemnation is not.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. And I can see that you're probably very good at that. And it is a very difficult thing to do, right? It's such a human instinct to want to judge qualitatively and sometimes condemn people for their actions. But that really never leads to helping them. It almost makes things worse. And we see society and systems do that on a large scale on a pretty regular basis, right, Travis? I wonder like, where did you get this level of deepness about you and the ability to judge but not condemn? What was your childhood like? Were your mom and dad also like that, did you learn that value from them?

Travis Claybrooks 

Yes, there's certainly a part of my upbringing and my family experience and not just my nuclear family, but the context of my larger family, and community in which I grew up that welcomed people, you know, no matter what. That worked to fix and make right and make better, right. And so that certainly was a grounding for me. My parents, my grandmother, in particular, Madea, we called her, her name was Lily, Lily Rebecca. And Lily was a beautiful woman who had such patient endurance. And I think I inherited much from her. But I think though, as I've moved into my adult years, I think what has helped me more has been my own sense of failure. The realities of my own shortcomings and failures and the fact that I have been worthy of condemnation and that I needed and wanted something different. And then as a result of that, how could I then look upon someone else to condemn them when I have been in the same situations,

Paul Meunier 

So true.

Travis Claybrooks 

I think that's been more impactful for me my own failures, and my own sense of need to remain in community and to be accepted. Despite what I've done, or how I've been.

Paul Meunier 

I think it's so easy to forget that we're all human. And we all make mistakes, and none of us are perfect, right? We're all worthy of condemnation at some point in our lives. Thinking about your school years, what were they like? Were you a good student? Did you go to safe school? All those kinds of things?

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah, I went to private school. You know, my mother worked very hard to ensure that we had a different kind of education experience, both from an academic standpoint and from a social standpoint. I was privileged to be able to go to a private church school, growing up all the way through college. I was a smart kid. I did very well in school through elementary school. But I never really learned how to study very well because I had such intellectual talents. And so, when it came time to need to study, I was not very good at that. And so, as I went into high school and into college, I floundered a lot. A lot.

Paul Meunier 

Did you get into trouble when you were younger? Or did were you able to avoid all that?

Travis Claybrooks 

You know, I didn't get into any major trouble. But I, I would have had my mother not put us in private school. Very hot tempered. And I was a protector as well. And so, I would try to hurt you if you were hurting someone. You know, my brother was being bullied by some guys in the neighborhood in and I came into the kitchen and I don't know I may have been maybe six or seven or eight years old. And I was rummaging through the drawer looking for a knife. I was getting ready to go handle business outside. And my brother's four years older than me. And my mother was like, What are you doing? I think I was probably six years old or so. My mom said What are you doing? She was cooking. And I stopped looking for a knife. They're messing with my brother messing with, you know, I call my brother's name and, and she's like, stop away, stop, stop, you know, and she goes and she sees what's going on. And she you know, deals with it. But I think for her, she says that that was a wake-up call for her that she needed maybe some different options for me than what I had in my neighborhood. But my neighborhood wasn't bad. It was I mean, like it was kids being kids. You know, I did not grow up around a lot of really any crime or very much violence, or any of that. And so, I never really got into any real trouble. You know, our neighbor had a plum tree I stole some plums. They got mad at me for that.

Paul Meunier 

So you're kind of a protector, right? You look out for other people. I see that in the fact that you started an organization to try to reduce social harm. You were also a police officer before you got into your current role as a CEO and founder. Do you think that's part of what drove you into being a police officer is the ability to protect and want to take care of people?

Travis Claybrooks 

Ah, no. Not really.

Paul Meunier 

Okay,

Travis Claybrooks 

Now, maybe it's why I was okay with being a police officer. I don't know if it's a why because I don't think I had a framework for being a police officer, or perspective of being a police officer as a protector. I don't know that that was how I saw it, even though it says to protect and to serve. I don't know that I believed that that's what they did. You know what police officers did, right.

Paul Meunier 

Interesting. Yeah.

Travis Claybrooks 

Becoming a police officer was a very pragmatic decision for me. I was a young father. I was dropping out of college. I had a young family and needed insurance and needed a paycheck. And my father was an employee for the police department. He wasn't a police officer, but he's an employee in the police department. And he said, Son, why don't you go to the police academy, become you know a police officer, steady pay steady insurance. So, I said, Huh, yeah.

Paul Meunier 

Why not.

Travis Claybrooks 

 It's as good a next step as any you know. I didn't know what I was doing. And so yeah, I was in my mid-20s. And that's so that's how I got into police officering.

Paul Meunier 

Interesting. So, you didn't become a cop because you wanted to protect people. I'm sure that was part of it but do you think then your work now is yes, directly impacting young people, but it seems like you have more of a macro view of things in terms of the systems and barriers that people are facing. I wonder if that protector and I know when we were getting to know each other you talked about your dad as being a protector. I wonder if that's part of a characteristic trait that gets you to do what you do. Just trying to make the world a better place and help people who are disadvantaged. Because you talked about having privilege. I certainly had all the privileges there are. But there's something about youth workers and people who do this work that really are just out to help other people. And it seems like that protector kind of side of you might be a driving force.

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't like a bully. I don't like bullies. I love good competition.

Paul Meunier 

Sure.

Travis Claybrooks 

You know, I love MMA. I mean, you may think I'm bad. I don't know. But I love like MMA, I love a good boxing match. I love a good football game. I love a good basketball game, a good competition, right? Where people are equals and have equal opportunity to be competitive. I love that. I abhor people who act as predators and predate on people and people who take advantage of someone because of a vulnerability or put power over and execute that. I abhor that. I get viscerally reactive in those kinds of injustices more so than other kinds. And especially that is especially true, when I can look at a party and say you should know better, you should be doing better. And in fact, you are actually responsible for protecting this person or these people, and you are abusing them. And so, when I think about systems and structures that are designed to be productive and to help and to support in society, yeah, I'm particularly sensitive to those structures that cause harm instead of helping.

Paul Meunier 

Travis, we're halfway through our interview already. So, we just need to take a short break, but we'll be right back after this.

Jade Schleif 

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Paul Meunier 

Travis, right before the break you were talking about systems, how they could hold people back, oppress people and how you hate a bully. How a bully really just triggers a deep emotional response to you. Do you see some of the systems in place, some of the things that are designed people tell us that are supposed to help people, but really, they're not often. Do you see systems is kind of bullying people from that kind of really broad perspective?

Travis Claybrooks 

Yes. But I think people who work in systems are amazing people. They've given their life to public service, or to any kind of service. And I think most people in those spaces want to be a part of change. But I do think about the processes. You know me as a police officer, I never had any intent to hurt anyone, structurally or systemically. But I could easily see that the work that I did was a part of a system and a structure that caused way more harm than it helped or healed. And that was just inherent in the system, right? That doesn't need to be. Those are the kinds of things that I push against. You know, but even as a pastor and as a faith leader, and as a person of faith in the Christian space, the church is supposed to be a space, for example, that is a part of the solution. And at most times, it's apathetic, it does nothing at all which sometimes it's worse. You know, I will appreciate you more if you stop on the side of the road, and you start to give me CPR trying to save my life. And you break a rib and puncture a lung and I die from a collapsed lung on the side of the street. I am going to appreciate that more than if I'm needing CPR on the side of the road and you just watch and drive by and did nothing. And to me, that's worse. And I think both of those things in my framework need to be addressed. And those are things that I try to press towards.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, you're talking about spirituality and faith. And I think the distinction between those two. And that's I know, when we were getting to know each other, we were talking about that a little bit, your ability to distinguish that. How would you, in your words, describe the difference between faith and spirituality? And how one is very practical, and the other is more theological?

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah, I do think that there is and it's probably not just my perspective, you know, I think there's a lot of study around, you know, practice, right, what we practice what we do. And then why we do it, or our doxology, our theology, our belief systems, right. And there's that. And then there's what we do with it. And I try to create as little separation between those two things as possible. And for me, a good example of that is, you know, in the Bible, And God said, Let there be light, and there was light, there was very little distance between what God believed should be that is, I believe that there should be light. And then what God chose to do. And the reality that became as a result of what God believed. And it was instant. Let there be light and there was light. Let there be justice, and there was justice. Let there be forgiveness, and there was forgiveness. Let there be love, and there was love. I think, as a believer, as a Jesus follower, that there should be very little distance between what I say and what I do. There should be very little distance between what I believe and when I practice. And that philosophy informs me and my relationship to faith and spirituality or faith and works, or my practice, and you know what, I believe in what I do. Now, that should not be confused with I am perfect or I have it all together.

Paul Meunier 

I thought you did. I thought you had it all together, Travis!

Travis Claybrooks 

I mean I may not even believe the right things or even have it all together as to what I shouldn't be believing or that I'm practicing well what I believe. But philosophically, that's what I embrace and strive towards.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, you're congruent, what you believe is what you do, right? Your actions match your value system and what your faith teaches you. There's a real congruency there. It's really easy to tell, Travis, from the second I met you; you seem like such an authentic, congruent person. I've got a question that might be kind of hard for you to answer. But thinking back to when you were a police officer because I keep going back to that because I think that's interesting. What do you think the similarities and differences are between policing and working with young people?

Travis Claybrooks 

Whoa. No kidding, difficult question.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Well, we hear so much about policing, right. But yet a lot of police officers just have all the right intentions in the world. And they want to help. You were one.

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah,

Paul Meunier 

Clearly.

Travis Claybrooks 

Yeah. Well, some of the things that jump out are you have to be good at a lot of things. You know you might enter the work thinking I'm going to do this.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah.

Travis Claybrooks 

But being a police officer requires you to be marriage counselor on one day, animal control on another day, you know, an urban fighter the next day. And so you are called a social worker almost every day. I mean, so many things that you are required to do because the needs of the population are so varied. And we have a culture that asks law enforcement to respond to everything that none of the rest of us want to deal with. Working with young people can be very similar. Kids come in with so many different things, one kid coming in with so many different things, and it requires you to be attentive to be almost like a hospitalist, you know, I am looking at the scope, the whole buffet of challenges, and have to know a little bit of enough about, you know, everything to be able to at least make a good referral if I can't help myself. So, there's that. You know, there's crisis intervention. So, there are a lot of similarities in the work.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah, I'm thinking that in both occupations, you have to be good at relating with people and connecting with people, I think, and you're so good at that. And I thought maybe that would be an inherent similarity.

Travis Claybrooks 

fWell, if you're a good police officer, or police officer of a certain kind, yes, you do. But there certainly is a lot of policing that there's no need for relationship. As long as you doing what you're supposed to be doing then I won't bother you. If you're doing what you're not supposed to be doing then I'm going to bother you. And here's what bothering you is going to look like. You know, if you choose to say, I am going to intervene humanely into this situation, then yes, qualities and characteristics like discernment and grace and relationship and lots of these soft kinds of competencies definitely are in order. You know, am I a presence and a part of this community or am I just here to take people to jail? Will I get out and walk around. You know, same thing with a kid. You know, the young person, do I want to be in relationship with you, or am I just your caseworker? And there's a difference between the two.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Well said. What have you learned about yourself from young people now that you get this institute going, you're working directly with young people sometimes, what have young people taught you about you?

Travis Claybrooks 

Mmmm, that I am still a child.

Paul Meunier 

Really?

Travis Claybrooks 

That so much of what I think and feel and believe about the world is connected to my childhood, to what happened to me when I was a kid, to what I experienced as a kid or didn't experience as a kid. And that what I am right now is just limbs and leaves, but that the trunk and the root of who I am, is a kid. And I get a chance to see that in kids. I get to connect to that root, that trunk. And even though they're the smaller version of human beings, they are the trunk, they are the root, they are what they are. So, I appreciate myself much more by looking at myself through that lens. I am less hard on myself. I have by working with young people, especially my own children, found much more grace for my father in particular, that this is a man who was living out his adulthood from his childhood. And that explains a lot. And amidst all the shortcomings that I may have condemned him for, I should have had more grace for him. And as I am growing up in age, and my children are growing up into adulthood and are in adulthood, I am appreciating how hard it was for my dad to be a good father. As I look at my children, and I hope that they have the grace for me that I wish I would have had for my dad. So yeah, so those are some and I just I get a chance to live with that and see that frequently in working with young people.

Paul Meunier 

What a wonderful gift that they give to us to remind us at the core of who we are. And we kind of see that reflection of ourselves in them sometimes and the ability to connect and remember that. We're just really bits and pieces of all the experiences we've gone through in our life and the people that have been there with us to experience all that stuff is kind of who we really are at the end of the day.

Travis Claybrooks 

It's given me the sense of mission and purpose as well that they need somebody pouring into them. You know, they want that. And they need the best version of that. The Maasai warriors have a phrase, Kasserian Ingera. And it's their common greeting that the warriors use. And it means "and how are the children?" And it's amazing how their common cultural greeting is about how are the kids doing. If the kids are doing well, we know our society is doing well. And so looking at and working with young people, who've taught me what's really important in our world today. It's that if they are doing well, then everything else is probably pretty good.

Paul Meunier 

Yeah. Yeah. What a wonderful phrase and a wonderful testament to how societies will function. And today, our young people are really struggling. We've done I think, a poor job overall, in addressing the needs of a lot of young people. Certainly not all young people. But in general, the young people are having a tough time. Suicide rate is really high mental illness is really high. So, we've got a lot to learn. And you can see it reflected in our society and all the problems we're having. We're raising people to not be equipped to be contributing to the welfare of that community. And it's a shame. Travis, it's been just absolutely wonderful having you as a guest on the podcast. I'm so grateful for your work, and all the things that you bring to this space to talk about and help us all understand what we bring to our work with young people that is uniquely us. And you are a unique character. And I say that in the most positive way. There's something so qualitatively good about you. And it's just been a joy to hear your talk and to share your perspectives with others. So, thanks for being a guest on the podcast.

Travis Claybrooks 

Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.

Paul Meunier 

Before we go, Travis, I always like to leave the guest with the last words. What words of wisdom or inspiration would you like to leave with the listeners?

Travis Claybrooks 

I think probably follow the throb that's in your chest about making a change for a difference in the world. That may or may not be what you're doing right now in your life. But keep following that. It's there inside of you for a reason, the world needs it. Continue to walk towards that.

Paul Meunier 

If you would like to share your passion for youth work, we'd love to spotlight you as a guest. If you have feedback about the show, please let us know. Just visit training.yipa.org, that's training.yipa.org and click on the podcast tab. This podcast is made possible in part due to a generous contribution from M Health Fairview. I'm your host, Paul Meunier. Thanks for listening to The Passionate Youth Worker.